Least successful troll attempt ever with my previous reply.

im pretty sure that this sums up the entire thread

I am aware of this; the comment was more a response to those people who were trawling out their unupdated opinions on the Israeli Palestinian conflict without considering that Hamas, though governing the territories, is not quite the same entity as your lay-Palestinian.

1. If 'bad tenancy' constitutes elaborate euphemism to you then I am not sure how much further we can continue this discussion.
2. I take your point that cloaking atrocities in euphemism removes an element of response to real situations and takes the discussion into the realm of the semantic, but by the same token, surely you can see that the deliberate use of dysphemism performs precisely the same function?
3. I deliberately did not mention whether or not either side was 'justified', merely expressed some factual information to balance the discussion somewhat; Israel provided the Palestinians with an armory, hence, armed by Israel.

Finally (sorry, I have been responding as I read), Radioactive Poltergeist, you are aware, are you not, that returning to pre-67 borders would mean that Israel got all of Jordan back? And, therefore, their original attempt to house displaced Palestinians in a country that is vastly superior, in terms of size and originally-Palestinian population, would be irradicated? I am also sure you are aware that Israel offered a Palestinian state as part of the '48 partition and it was refused by the Palestinians because they wanted more of Jerusalem? Or are these facts inconvenient for your reactionary twisting of the 'truth'? And don't believe for a second that you can argue with what has just been said because the fact is that at best I have provided you with information that directly contradicts your understanding of the situation, at worst, I have employed the same methods as you ie taking some information I know, exaggerating and twisting it and reconstituting it to win an argument, hoping that everyone else posting is terrified of my rhetorical flourishes.

oh! -- oh...

sorry-- interweb misunderstandings

Washington Post article claiming that the recent attacks have actually revived Hamas:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...901901_pf.html

i've linked you the printable page which i believe requires no password to read

"Not sure if you're up on your geopolitics, but the IDF has been attacking the Hamas security installations in Gaza-- this is not a blanket attack on Palestinians, thought some people sure would like to paint it that way. Last I heard, there aren't any Apache gunships entering the West Bank, which is governed by Fatah. Hence, Israel vs. Hamas, that's what it is going on at the moment".

Yeah, unfortunately it is seen by Palestinians as a blanketed attacked on all that is Palestinian or "Arab" even. And IDF has killed many, many, non Hamas members.

'Ee, 'ello ducky, y'alright?

I don't know, the besieging of Gaza by the Israeli military for nearly the past two years has a bit more than nothing to do with it don't you think? You can't even get household tools and hardware to make small repairs into Gaza because Israel is so fucking paranoid of getting attacked, meanwhile they only fuel the flames in Gaza with such excessive force.

"Hunger before the storm
Sameh A. Habeeb writing from the occupied Gaza Strip, Live from Palestine, 25 December 2008

Queues form at a Gaza bakery as bread becomes scarce.
Israeli politicians, in the run-up to elections, are promising to deal a severe blow to Gaza as this is how Israeli policy is made. However, every household in Gaza is already under siege. In Gaza you can only find pale, angry and frustrated faces. If you visit my house you won't find power, while my neighbor is out of gas. Another neighbor seeks potable water as power outages have left him without for four days. A third neighbor desparately looks for milk for his child but does so in vain. Another friend who lives on the corner needs medicine that can't currently be found in Gaza.

There is no shortage of such stories in Gaza (though there is a shortage of nearly everything else). Perhaps broadcasting such stories would result in pressure on Israeli leaders to stop the siege. Because what is happening is that the entire Gaza population of 1.5 million -- densely packed into a small area -- is being punished for crude rockets being fired into Israel by a few.

Shaher Mazen, 25, holds a degree in political science but works as a taxi driver to put bread on the table for his family. I spoke to him while I was on my way to some of the Gaza bakeries to cover some news that was happening there. Shaher was frustrated because of siege and furious towards the two rival Palestinian governments, considering them as weak in the face of Israel.

Mazen said, "We are under an organized Israeli media campaign. We are being starved and victimized by Israel. The world think we are besieging Israel, not the other way around. Israel is playing up the issue of rocket fire to besiege us more and more."

Flour is now a precious commodity in Gaza. Al-Shanty bakery in Gaza City is one of the Strip's largest, supplying tens of thousands with bread. Yesterday, hundreds of people crowded outside the bakery in a very long queue, waiting for a bag of bread. Children, women and men were awaiting the chance to buy some bread, which has become scarce as Israel has not allowed the import of adequate supplies of flour and cooking gas.

"Our bakery is out of bread for days now and what we have will only last for another 24 hours. In fact, we stopped our work yesterday as we ran out of flour. Now, we use animal feed which will finish in a matter of hours," explained 24-year-old Abed Masod while he busily worked at the bakery.

A woman's voice arose above the crowd. She started to scream and appealed to God for salvation and relief from Gaza's dire situation. Forty-five-year-old Om Ali Shoman's weary face bore the impact of Gaza's suffering. "This is our destiny," she said. "It's a conspiracy designed against us. What did my children do to stay at home with no bread? Did they fire rockets? Did they kill Israelis? Are they holding guns?"

Only about a dozen of Gaza's 47 bakeries are currently operating as of yesterday, but with rapidly diminishing supplies. The UN agency for Palestine refugees (UNRWA) had to stop its food aid deliveries because Israel has not allowed it to replenish its stores. This affects 750,000 refugees in the Gaza Strip.

Gazans fear that the worst, however, is yet to come as the Israeli government renews its threats of a major offense against the Gaza Strip, irrespective of the civilian toll an invasion would inevitably incur.

Time is running out in Gaza and mass starvation looms as Gaza's skies are further darkened with threats of an Israeli military incursion. As a journalist, peace activist, and one of the hundreds of thousands of Gazans who are being collectively punished by Israel, I urge those who read this to appeal their governments to hold Israel accountable to international law, including the Fourth Geneva Convention, article 33 of which forbids the collective punishment of a civilian population. Though it unilaterally removed its illegal settlement population from the Gaza Strip in 2005, Israel has remained in control of Gaza's borders, sea and airspace, as well as its population registry, and remains the occupying power, and as such is obligated to abide by international humanitarian law, including the Fourth Geneva Convention.

I urge readers to press their governments to force Israel to respect the countless United Nations resolutions that affirm Palestinian rights, and which Palestinian leaders demand must be immediately implemented.

Please don't let Gaza's plight be forgotten, and urge those around you to act as well.

All photos by Sameh A. Habeeb."

Since Israel doesn't occupy Gaza anymore I don't see why it should worry about the palestinians who live there (and voted for a party that aims to destroy Israel). Theyhould get their supplies from Egypt (the same way they get their arms).

Israel won't let them remember? Thats why it is called a SIEGE.

don't you remember when the Palestinians stormed the fence to get into egypt to by things like water and toilet paper? that lasted all of three days...

he means these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling_tunnel#Smuggling_tunnels_in_Rafah.2C_Gaz a_Strip

no, he means what he said. what a small group of terrorists and militia men do to arm themselves is irrelevant to how a million and a half people are supposed to get food, water and supplies. Israel will see, Tel Aviv will be swamped with sewage as the Palestinians haven't been able to properly treat their waste water, because it takes 14 consecutive days for the treatment facilities to complete the task, and they haven't had 14 days with a black out in 3 years because of fuel shortages directly caused by the blockade.. so the raw sewage of a million people is dumped into the Mediterranean every day..

[quote=SuchFriendsAreDangerous]no, he means what he said. what a small group of terrorists and militia men do to arm themselves is irrelevant to how a million and a half people are supposed to get food, water and supplies./quote]

million and a half people who voted for a small groups of terrorist that offers to destroy Israel. I'm not happy about this situation but the Palestinians should be accountable for the actions. They asked to be free, now they should learn how to deal with it.

fucked up.

i dont know what this revenge by caca means, but here's the irony:

hamas has the wherewithal to smuggle missiles, weapons, and the such-- but no flour?



well, to be fair (i do not want to be one-sided), they aren't exactly "free" as israel controls (more or less) the borders, the sea, the airspace, the population registry, etc. so it's not exactly "freedom".

but if you could please clarify the border situation, i'd appreciate it. who controls what, at this point?

--
now, to compare the both: before the attacks, israel sent cellphone warnings to civilians to move away from houses that served as weapons storages-- hamas would never extend the same "courtesy" to israeli civilians as it merrily shoots its missiles.

How the hell do you want Israel to act against an entity who declares it seeks the destruction of Israel?
Well Israel did send fuel, gas, food, medicine into Gaza while the Palestinians continued to fire rockets towards Israel. The time has come to say enough. The Hamas was warned last week to stop the fire but refused to do so. Israel MUST take care of its own security. The Palestinians should ask themselves now if they did they right thing by supporting Hamas over Fatah.
I know that war is stupid but living in the middle east teaches you sometimes that there is no other way.

well i dont think for a minute that if hamas had full control of gaza they'd not fully militarize it right away.

for the naive and misinformed, a reminder: hamas is the palestinian branch of the muslim brotherhood, which wants to reestablish the caliphate through jihad.

here's their official website:
http://www.ikhwanweb.com/

enjoy :/

Their intention clearly isn't to "fuck up gaza". Their intention is to have a peaceful, vibrant, safe Israeli state.

When Hammas attacks Israeli innocents, they are interfering with the peace, vibrancy and safety of the Israeli state.

These attacks are intended to send the message not to interefere with the safety of Israel.

That's what I meant when I said "fuck with us and we will fuck you up".

Israel's aim is true and justified.

(unless you don't think that Israel deserves safety and vibrancy...)

yes, a peaceful Israeli state at the expense of Gaza, I'm sorry but the massive retaliations by Israel over the past twenty years clearly reveal that Israel wants no peace, as they are doing many things to the contrary. Do they honestly think that blowing a bunch of shit up and killing hundreds of people in Gaza will STOP violence? Violence only begets violences.

Do they honestly think that laying siege against gaza so that food and toilet paper become contraband will stop the violence? It will only compound it, which it has.

The problem is that Israel acts like all of the rockets come from a legitimate government, which they do not. MANY of the rockets from Palestine are not coordinated by Hamas, but are launched by pissed off, unaffiliated militants, and even if they utterly annihilate all of Hamas and the Gaza strip, some pissed off youth will continue the rockets and carry on as ever. Israel needs to find a new solution, excessive military force has not succeed once in the past fifty years..

Israel pursues the same policy which the US did in Vietnam, brute force, and look where the fuck that got us? Millions of dead vietnamese and a region littered by unexploded ordinances which continue to maim and kill innocent children generations removed from the conflict.

"what is wrong, with this current generation, can't they stop living in the old time inspiration, what is the meaning of this all? when will the weather be making its last call? when well be the end of it all? now that your back is against the wall...

hatred and scorn has torn us apart, sufferation has left some living with a broken heart, corruption is slowly making lots of progress, because mankind has been living in a mess

corruption is tearing us to pieces today, corruption is taking the world away..
sufferation is playing its part, and now mankind its getting hard.."

the Ethiopians

Maybe everyone should have thought about that before 1948 when Israel was invaded from all sides.

Israeli peace doesn't have to come at the expense of Gaza. If Gazan citizens would stop their senseless violence, then Israelis would be more than happy to help them out.

You can not assert that Gazan's have the right to bomb Israel without provocation, or can you?

Maybe Israel should have thought of that before they invaded the land in the first place? See we can play this game for centuries, but eye for an eye leaves us all blinded.

This is easily the most brilliant observation made thus far. It's so obvious that it never occured to me.



So, should we blame the chicken or the egg? According to Such, we ought to blame whichever one is Israel.

It's not an invasion if you live there; it is not possible to invade a place where one already is. Or are you defending the Canaanites now?

Hamas is no fully equiped terror unit...
They use these DIY- rockets, containing compost, sugar ... fireworks basically (when compared with israels means)

How many jews lived there before 1948 and then after, and you have the nerve to NOT call that an invasion? Ideologies confuse things.

Israel is an occupying force, but I do not feel that they will ever leave, so I have gotten over that fact, they will be in Israel for ever, so that is that.

However, that DOES NOT GIVE THE ISRAELIS the right to do whatever the fuck they feel like, war has rules, and if you fuck up, war comes back to burn you. Fire is not impartial, not even to them that burn fire.

I am not here to debate whether or not the state of Israel should exist, I hardly doubt millions of people will leave where they have been for sixty years.. however, if Israel would like militants to stop lobbing rockets into their peripheral towns, than perhaps Israel should not stoke the flames with more bombs and death.

While Israelis are dying, the casualty ratio has been anywhere from 10 to 1 too 100 to 1, and that is just fucking disgusting if you ask me. Nothing justifies it, period, and regardless of the ideology behind Israel's existence, they have NO FUCKING RIGHT to kill so many folks, even in the name of defending themselves. You do not have the right to inflict whole-sale slaughter in the name of defense, that is not defense, it is an offense.

This war has been going on for ages and "supporting" either side means you agree with war and death (like a football game).

It's obvious, as it has been FOR AGES, that Israel is richer and abuses its power.

This war cannot be won. It can only get worse. I don't think the U.S.A can do anything, Obama is not a messiah and this is beyond woodwill, human rights or politics.

Let's not joke about it like it was superbowl.

holy fuck, no, katyusha rockets arent "diy fireworks"-- they're deadly weapons not to be fucked with

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyusha

i hope you're not proposing that this branch of the Muslim Brotherhood gets armed with anthrax, plutonium, ICBMs and strategic bombers...

Before 1948? I dunno. A million or so. There were a bunch of illegals, so it's hard to pin down an exact number.

In 2008? About 5.5 million.

IGNORANCE.

INDEED


Man I'm so sick of this shit. The Palestinians are surrounded by their supposed Arab bretheren who, unless events like the recent Israeli bombings occur, don't do a fucking thing for them. Even now what are they doing, other than releasing predictable sound-bites?

Presumably, if the Palestinians recieved the assistance from the other Arab nations in the area that one would reasonably expect, they would: 1.) Wipe out the Jews, then, 2.) Attack their neighbors to regain the land they lost post WWII (though, if we have to blame anyone, let's blame the Brits for this). I'm sure a number of nations would like to see 1., but it's 2. that causes so many countries to give a stiff middle finger to the Palestinians.

But I'm just guessing here. Maybe it's just inner-Arab-world prejudice. Palestinians are regarded by the other Arab nations like the US regards Mexico, or Japan regards China. From what I understand, no one really likes them or has much faith that they can do much on their own.

that maybe correct, but how does any of that vindicate the military operations of Israel? It doesn't, Israel uses cop-outs like no other, but in these circumstances, lives are lost by the dozen.. :(

so they started a ground assault.
its fucked up. i hope soldiers dont get killed. and more palestinians...

If Israel gave them the means to get all this stuff for themsleves rather than rationing them i bet they wouldn't be firing rockets at anyone.

As much as perhaps the greater Palestine would agree with you, there unfortunately are going to be radicals that will counteract any well-intentioned gestures by Israel. Then again Israel has a penchant towards exacting unnecessary payback.