nationalism
 

there's been alot of flag waving recently what with the royal wedding and bin laden getting shot. What are your feelings toward Nationalism?

is it wrong to love your country? Is it wrong to believe that your country is better than any other country? Isn't it a few short steps away from racism?
Or is it natural to love your homeland

i love parts of England. Some of the country is beautiful. And it's my home, but i can't think of too much that we've done that i'm proud of.

There's nothing wrong with patriotism.

is that the same as nationalism though?


edit: sorry Nefeli, this response was meant for Keeping It Simple.

have you BEEN to America????

it's fanfuckingtastic.

There is nothing wrong with nationalism as long as you are comfortable with constructing an identity based on a state-constructed conception of culture. I happen to have a problem with that. There has never been a time when culture has been a bounded by borders; almost all cultures play off of each other one way or another, and in a sense, there is a natural evolution in trends and behaviors. The caveat being that culture NEVER unfolds in a pre-determined way (i.e. there is no pre-industrial, industrial, post-industrial universal trend in the development of society). Thus, I think it's important to posit the concept of the nation in terms of the greater context of governance, with increasing forms of discipline being an enacted on the citizens.

The point being that nationalism is inextricably linked with the actions of the state. Resistance to the state is thus nipped in the bud, and or marginalized. It is a form of socialization which prizes allegiance to fabricated, bounded, conception of culture. Nationalism is the breeding ground for any idea which attempts to push that conception of culture as something unique and ultimately worth defending. Taken to the extreme this is a form of "racism", whether you like it or not.

So, in short, I'm not a nationalist and I think it's a bad thing.

I think Patriotism and Nationalism are only subtly different. Patriotism is allegiance to the state, nationalism to the culture. In reality, both are state constructed, so I see very little difference between the two.

Nationalism (culture, language etc.) and patriotism (state, politics etc.) and racism (bio, ethno etc.): that's all stupid shit.

It's natural to love your homeland and your surrondings to a certain degree, but patriotism/nationalism is generally really stupid and dangerous.
My culture is much more regional and related to my family background, it can't possibly be completely unified throughout the entire country, with people from different backgrounds, ethnicities, history and religion etc.
A nation is a fantasy with an invented identity and culture (that may or may not be based on real cultural aspects of the region) but human culture has no borders.
Enforcing 'patriotism' is kind of important to enforce obedience and a sense of unity but also results in some of the ugliest things the human being is capable of.
I just got up so I probably don't make sense.

But England is beautiful.

I would like to say that a world without borders would just let all the mexicans in, but since I love mexicans and am currently undergoing a calculated expatriation myself, I'll end this post with a rousing HAPPY CINCO de MAYO, mi hermanos!!

they could possibly claim back all the land that was originally theirs.
you better leave NOW!

I agree with what Glice said (when he says it).

as if. there is a "come and take it" flag hanging in the conference room near me.

nobody is taking Texas except for Texans, and that may be soon, gods willing.

now, California...they can have!

i suppose they are both public spectacle


it's a XIX century invention that was useful at the time, it promoted the breakup of empires and self-determination of peoples around the globe. it was, as martha stewart would put it (ha), "a good thing".

nowadays it's more of a handicap for progress. these days you can't identify an ethnic group with a "nation" any longer.

just look at israel and palestine to see what nationalism is doing today.

so-- my feelings toward it? suspicion and frustration, mostly.


why, no. but there are so many ways to do that, some are great, some are deeply wrong.

wanting to save natural treasures or eliminate poverty because you love your country is a good thing. throwing molotov cocktails in the stadium because you "love your country" and your team lost is not.


yes. it is fucking delusional. some countries are better at some things than other country. for examply, my current country is better at doing business, but it sucks at food. my country of birth is great at food and great at corruption. etc.


what is?


i suppose it's natural to love the things you're familiar with. i for one miss living next to the sea. and i miss good food ('merica doesn't do food right).


why not, mr. blake.


eh, yeah, that royal wedding, pfffffttt. be proud of your student rioters though. i think they were awesome.

That's part of the problem. Nationalism in Britain anyway is very selective about what it celebrates as 'great'. It celebrates institutions (the monarchy, the military) but sees any kind of radicalism as running counter to that greatness. So the SAS are celebrated but not the Tolpuddle Martyrs, the Women's Institute but not The Diggers - and yet it was that radical spirit which had far more of a hand in the creation of things like the Welfare State - something I'd happily wave a union jack for over a royal wedding. And it's why I support the campaign to make Blake's 'Jerusalem' the national anthem.

This guy clearly loves his country.

Ive fucking despised the Royal Wedding, Ive tolerated the fact my high street has had British flags flying for weeks because it doesnt cause me any bother. Ive always hated cheap token patriotism, people saluting a flag rather than doing anything to uphold the values it represents, and the royal family is the ultimate example of that

actually, i love our Ales and our Footpaths and David Attenborough

Nothing wrong with loving.

Too much "you're a rascist" if you say u love your country and are proud of who you are.

Idiots are mixing it together with nationalsocialism..
fuck it..

maybe 'nationalism' can be easily mixed up with racism in Europe, but it certainly doesn't apply to places like US, Canada, Brazil... you know, 'mixed', 'melting pot' nations where the idea of patriotism is still imposed.

i had to read a bunch of wikipedia articles to know what you were talking about, which is great (well, not about blake, you caught my reference to him i think, but about everything else).

and yes: it's usually the vast majority of idiots which defines "nationalism" these days, and on the worst possible terms.


right, but without XIX century nationalism you'd still be in the ottoman empire, no? (there would still be an ottoman empire, probably, all the way to bosnia. also, india would still be a colony. but there would be no nuclear arms race with pakistan... always many sides to everything).

serbia/kosovo/etc

I don't mind nationalism, in the same way I quite like books. There are some books that are shit, some that are good, some that are AMAZING, and some that were written by James Joyce and are therefore better than everything else (with the possible exception of Cixous). England is a bit like that convoluted simile.

Or rather, nationalism is alright in a more-or-less way. You can like one thing without negating another (unless that other happens to be Australia, obviously).

Non-exhaustive list of things that are great about England: convoluted relationship to tea; Lady Sov; Dutty Ken's DJing and accent; old men's shoes; The Barley Mow, Bedminster; library staff; flustered horny old ladies; organised football brawls; that accents change in 20 mile radius, when China (for instance) doesn't change for hundreds of miles.

i just think people shouldn't wear t-shirts, jackets and scarves with flags.

I'm American but I prefer English culture. What does that make me?


(C'mon. Easy set-up. Don't let me down.)

sensible?

I feel that nationalism is, on some level, intrinsically arrogant concept, because it often has an idea of unequality of peoples with different background. It's sporting team logic. i.e. "we are above the others".

It becomes dangerous when it's being used as a tool of power. Nationalism is often fueled by nostalgic ideals and fantasies, which has a blinding effect on people. Thus they feel that they're justified to do a lot of the stupid shit they do.

I understand that nationalism has it's time and place in the history, but modern nationalism / patriotism seems to go hand in hand with conservatism, which I find regressive. I don't understand this craving for the imaginary "good ol´ times".

wow.

oh, i don't wanna go there


you could be a nationalist and a futurist-- e.g. marinetti and his protofascist friends. while the original ideas of nation had to do with "blood" and the "mother/fatherland" and all that shit, it's not necessarily a throwback. going to the moon was a nationalistic pursuit but it was very much about conquering the future (it didn't work, but that's another story).

nationalism is in the end just a form of social identity, which goes with our tribal/herd instinct-- you belong to a family, a tribe, a city, a nation, etc. we're social animals and it's part of our human nature, harcoded in DNA. the issue is not if should exist or not: it can and it will. the issue is how to make it productive and beneficial instead of some dumbfuck shithead psychological dysfunction like hooliganism or perpetual warfare, much like you can be part of an awesome family or an alcoholic fucked up one. and yes, the "national family" of any country has a lot of sad drunken uncles, senile grandmas, and crackhead cousins.

nationalism to me means people who lean on the side of racism and general right wing policies, thats from my experience anyway.

in canada a lot of people wear 'canada wear' and stuff like that and its generally accepted, even though it makes me uncomfortable but being english and seeing people wear england t shirts back home i would stay away from them.

A Paedophile